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V7 850 Stone wouldn't start

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Small Blocks
Forum Description: V35 up to V750 including Breva750, V7, V9 and new V85.
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=14871
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 14:59
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: V7 850 Stone wouldn't start
Posted By: Tommy_dogs
Subject: V7 850 Stone wouldn't start
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2022 at 22:06
Hey everyone, 
Never been on a forum before, hope someone could help. My V7 wouldn't start. Been riding it every day last week 7 miles to work and back, after two days rest it wouldn't start, completely dark dash. After a few tries the light  would come on do the cluster check but wouldn't start. After a few tries it started but as soon as I added throttle it shut off. Later that evening did the same the only difference that I could ride it till the end of the street but then it would shut off and nothing. Could someone please give me any information they might have. 

Also today I found oil under the air filter under the seat it was quite a puddle taking up about one third of the surface of the bottom of the box. 

Please help.



Replies:
Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2022 at 22:22
Don't know this model .... others do have a drain plug underneath. Did you try opening the tank then starting it? You should hear a fuel pump.

Known other models get the breather blocked.

Check the battery level low battery causes all sorts of elektrikery none sense.

No doubt someone who knows the newer models will be along BUT if still under warranty get it to a dealer


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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 07:52
Thoughts;

The CANBUS on the 850 seems to be a total @#$%$#%&$k. It won't turn the engine until there is sufficient fuel pressure, the battery voltage is good, the moon is in Aquariums etc. Key the ignition ten times then try the starter button. Hold the button and count to twenty, don't stab at it.

Watch the gear indicator. When my clutch was mis-adjusted and the dealer had filled the gearbox with lard it blew the mind of the ECU. It's speed-RPM calculation was wrong so while the mandated neutral light was on, the display showed first. You then get a computer-sez-no situation.

The switchgear is $$%#. Open the right hand set and get in there with the contact cleaner.

If you still have St.Greta's box fitted the breathing is bad. Open the filler and listen for hissing.

The dealers are over filling with oil, so goo in the airbox is a distinct possibility.

Check the battery.

From the description I suspect more a battery problem, so would go battery then switch gear.

If there is a hint of dealer muppetry you need to try a different one for the warranty route. Via Moto in Sheffield employ Kermit, Fozzi Bear and the Great Gonzo. In the North I'd call Teasdales.

Andy 


Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 08:17
Yes; I checked my air filter yesterday as part of the annual service and found a little oil in it. Interestingly it was golden in colour, not the red (Motul) that was used at the dealer 900 miles service and by me since. +1 on the rhs switch cluster, a number of which have been known to go bad. The mode button on mine was so slow in operating that I thought it wasn’t working. A good clean up and protection needed, as advised above. Mine has never been an instant starter, though it does start on the first press - as said, don’t just stab at it. The exception in starting used to be after a good hard thrash when the pressure in the fuel tank caused by the charcoal canister made hot starting a longer affair. If the canister were a pretty thing I’d have mounted it somewhere, but it isn’t, so it’s now in a drawer in my garage. Either way it’s no longer on the bike, on which the engine now hot starts perfectly.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 08:23
Good grief !!
I have recently been considering one of the modern Guzzis , reading these posts I'm rapidly going off the idea.. Think I'll stick to the older bikes, too much new fangled stuff on the new ones..

Back to my cave now....

Adrian
Bristol UK


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 09:05
Originally posted by AdrianW AdrianW wrote:

Good grief !!
I have recently been considering one of the modern Guzzis , reading these posts I'm rapidly going off the idea.. Think I'll stick to the older bikes, too much new fangled stuff on the new ones..

Back to my cave now....

Adrian
Bristol UK

The bikes are about as advanced as scientific calculator, 1990's technology. If you can set up a wireless server or make your phone do what you want it to they are easy enough.

The problems are that people used to Victorian technology inhabit the dealers and write the manuals and Guzzi still blows the budget on a stylist and then buys switch gear from the company that didn't get the contract with Lego. 

If you don't own an OBD reader or know what the other settings than buzz do on your multi-meter, then yes, it's a learning curve and you need to decide if you want to climb it. I'll take an OBD code telling me a sensor is @#$%#$ over bad behaviour from carbs than involve endless cycles of strip-replace-rebuild-test. The computer of course can't tell you you have an air leak so some of the old skills remain.

It would be nice of course if Guzzi stopped supplying a kit, 99% assembled, without instructions, possibly with parts missing, or Honda made a bike that was fun to ride, but that's motorcycles for you.

Andy 


Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 09:06
My take on it is that the parts made in-house are fine; the paintwork and chrome (on the Special) is as good as anything out there. In my view these bikes are let down by Chinese stuff (eg rear brake) and by the switches and modern EFI, which if it’s sorted now it wasn’t when the bikes were launched - two official map updates so far. I can think of no other large capacity air-cooled bike that meets E5 - the other retros are air/oil cooled. There’s probably a reason for that although having the pots sticking out in the breeze helps. M-G does appear to be over-enthusiastic with whatever it uses as threadlock too and also very stingy with the grease gun (a lot of bikes suffer from this). 
I think that they aren’t turnkey bikes; after the singles when was this ever the case. GuzziTech have been selling map updates for years and the Motoplat ignition on my Cali III expired early. I just think that they are bikes that need perseverance. There is a lot that is good about them. That said, I won’t be first in line for the V100; it’s bound to have issues…


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 10:45
Having read glowing reports of the new V100 the thought arose that if I sold both of my Loops and added a little more from my piggy bank, I could have one.I did notice that the testers were impressed by the extensive electronics' "suite" as one of them called it. Doubts crept in; so many of the problems aired in these hallowed pages are down to various electronic issues. The thought of a new V100 soon faded as like AdrianW above I crept back to my cave and checked on my spare contact breaker stock.

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: red leader one
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 13:07
"The bikes are about as advanced as a scientific calculator, 1990's technology. If you can set up a wireless server or make your phone do what you want it to they are easy enough."


This has completely explained why I struggle with life nowadays.

I can only handle phones situated in a big red box.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 13:32
And even then you risked a small child pressing button B just as you got through.


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Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 13:35
Yes, but you could make free calls by using various nefarious techniques, all well-known to the GPO….


Posted By: Dave P.
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 13:43
As a kid I never walked past a phone box without popping in and pressing button B. Most of the time nothing happened but occasionally I would be rewarded as fourpence rattled into the little change tray. I didn't do this if someone was in there making a call of course.

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TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

1971 V7 Special. 1972 850GT.
1970 T120 Bonnie. 2009 500 Bullet.


Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 14:49
I used to make calls by tapping out the number on the contact for the headset😉 like Morse code.


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 17:43
Back to the subject at hand before this descends into the "Brontosaurus vertebrae for goal posts" thread.

When the engine dies out on the road, does the display also die?

This shouts more ignition switch or earth fault than some of the other ideas.

Andy 




Posted By: Speciality
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 18:48
There’s a recent thread in another forum about an 85TT with similar symptoms. Lots of suggestions were made in an attempt to help. In the end the bike was taken to the supplying dealer who diagnosed a bad connection to primary fuel injection relay. Easily resolved and a permanent cure was effected. I think that unless you have a wiring diagram and are handy with a multimeter it would be wise to take it to the dealer. No fault was showing using an OBD2 reader. I don’t know whether or not you have tried this - it would be the first thing I’d do to see if any fault codes are stored. Really IMHO a generic OBD2 reader is essential for this and other EFI bikes that conform to the OBD2 standard.


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 18:52
How old is this bike 

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2022 at 20:10
Originally posted by Andy M Andy M wrote:

The switchgear is $$%#. Open the right hand set and get in there with the contact cleaner.


Early on I had successfully disabled the sidestand switch – replaced it with a wire loop on a plug, where it connects to the loom.

I was so flushed with success and pride of a mod well done, I decided next to have a go at bypassing the fall sensor. This struck me as something else to possibly throw a spanner in the works as it's part of the kill switch circuit.

But the service manual troubleshooting page tells lies. It sez there should be +12V on one side of the kill switch, but there isn't. Nothing. It connects to one pin of the ECU, then the other side of the kill switch connects to another pin of the ECU, and this side incorporates the fall sensor, which also needs 12V and an earth for reasons I don't know. So it seems the kill switch only connects two pins of the ECU together, and I can't detect a Voltage anywhere on those lines, in any circumstances, nevertherless the kill switch works as such, so some kind of communiction must be going through the switch, somehow. Maybe it's a digital signal? Anyway I decided to leave well alone, button it all back up and not mess with it anymore. Ouch

But in light of what I found I learned to flick the kill switch a couple of times before starting, especially a cold start, just in case the contacts have decidied to go high resistance in the interim. Now some people say never operate the kill swich because it wears out the contacts. On the other hand, the contacts should be self cleaning, if they're the sliding type (and they usually are).










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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2022 at 10:16
If the kill switch connects two pins of the ECU it will pulse a fraction of an Amp at about 4.5 V up either pin when it wants to check the continuity. It's not doing any work, just looking for the same piddly little buzz making it through the switch. 

Best Regards

Andy


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2022 at 17:06
Yes, you have to use a different mindset when ECUs are involved.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Mike H
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2022 at 16:11
Originally posted by Andy M Andy M wrote:

If the kill switch connects two pins of the ECU it will pulse a fraction of an Amp at about 4.5 V up either pin when it wants to check the continuity. It's not doing any work, just looking for the same piddly little buzz making it through the switch. 

Best Regards

Andy


Thanks for that! That totally adds up. There was something going on but that only showed on the DMM as a few tens of millivolts DC 'coming and going' (an old Fluke 83 BTW) If I could've been arsed to put an oscilloscape on it I may have been able to see it doing it. Thumbs Up



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"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."


Posted By: Christy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2022 at 11:51
Originally posted by johnno johnno wrote:

How old is this bike 

It can't be more than 2 years old. The 850 hasn't been out that long. I would take it to a dealer. 




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Back on a Breva ... Again!! Breva 1100, Ducati Monster 900, Multistrada 950, 900SS Project


Posted By: johnno
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2022 at 14:55
Originally posted by Christy Christy wrote:

Originally posted by johnno johnno wrote:

How old is this bike 

It can't be more than 2 years old. The 850 hasn't been out that long. I would take it to a dealer. 


warranty Thumbs Up

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1100 sport corsa , Yam R1, guzzi 650tt rider


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2022 at 20:38
Well, he described it as a V7, nothing more. Also he posted on Noveber 9, came back the next day but not since. So actualy we have no idea which model or how old it is.
Fully agree, if it's still within the warranty period, get it sorted by a dealer.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Tommy_dogs
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2022 at 12:06
Thank you for all your responses, and advice.

The ignition cable broke under the ignition.
Fixed as it's still under warranty, otherwise it would have been a £350 adventure.

Thanks again.


Posted By: Christy
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2022 at 13:46
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

Well, he described it as a V7, nothing more. Also he posted on Noveber 9, came back the next day but not since. So actualy we have no idea which model or how old it is.
Fully agree, if it's still within the warranty period, get it sorted by a dealer.

It said 850 in the title. Glasses on Brian LOL


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Back on a Breva ... Again!! Breva 1100, Ducati Monster 900, Multistrada 950, 900SS Project


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 07:53
Originally posted by Tommy_dogs Tommy_dogs wrote:


The ignition cable broke under the ignition.


Glad you got sorted.

Another thing to check though Unhappy

Andy 


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 09:31
You really shouldn't need to check things like that on a nearly new motorcycle.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Andy M
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 17:33
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

You really shouldn't need to check things like that on a nearly new motorcycle.

Correct, but this is Italian shed-made.
 
If Honda would resurrect the CX650 or Harley would put their engine in a Vincent style frame or Triumph dealers weren't such ****s I wouldn't have to.

Andy 



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