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Lithium Battery

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Category: Modifications and Restorations
Forum Name: Modifications
Forum Description: Let us know all about your Guzzi related modifications
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=678
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 20:27
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Topic: Lithium Battery
Posted By: Guztave
Subject: Lithium Battery
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2014 at 16:05
I am thinking of replacing the battery on my Spoti with an Antigravity Lithium Battery - has anyone used one of these on their Moto Guzzi?



Replies:
Posted By: Ken-Guzzibear
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2014 at 17:34
there was a discussion some time ago very expensive for not a lot of real gain the agm ones are ok BUT I found the Bosch system killed mine I went back to the oem one on the V1000 the V11 uses an AGM one and it works well with the Ducati altenator set up BUT I found the AGM batteries do need to have the bike hooked up to a battery tender they seem to loose charge the Lithium ones I really only know from what I have read


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The Older i Get, The Better I Was


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2014 at 22:57
Various people have mentioned them on the Guzzitech forum.
Advantages,
Light weight, but a diet could sometimes lose more.Wink
Long life, as much as twice the life of a lead acid. Good retention of charge, but don't like continuous low load as in alarms etc.
 
Disadvantage
High cost, often twice the cost of a lead acid.
Have been known to heat up and catch fire.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: lawny
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2014 at 23:29
I have a Shorai on my Norge.  it is certainly lighter and smaller than the Yuasa that came as stock but costs twice as much.

I suffer from the dreaded no-start on occasion when the voltage drops and the 15Amp fuse blows.  The Shorai does much better than the various lead-acid batteries that I've tried but nothing seems to solve it completely (short of doing the relay by-pass, I presume).  

My Norge lives outside under one of the folding tent things and in the winter
a) I can't leave it on trickle charge and 
b) it gets very cold sometimes - not good for the lead acids.    

My impression is that the Shorai stands the cold much better than the Yuasa or any other conventional battery.  Plus, if you do want to remove it for charging (not essential as there is a cable for it on-board) or for fiddling with something else , it is easier than lead-acid simply because of the weight.   




Posted By: Guztave
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2014 at 00:22
I guess the lithium battery is much smaller than the original? I could do with making a bit more space to carry some more tools etc


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2014 at 11:10
Smaller? Depends on what you compare with. The later type AGM Lead Acid batteries are much smaller than the older type fitted as standard on the Tonti bikes. I would say the shorai and other Lithium types are about the same as the AGM for size.
 
Lawny, what you need is a solar charger, just sit it on top of the tent, that's what I use, it's a 4 Watt one, and it keeps the standard battery up OK. The Norge, as with all the other later models, does have a constant drain on the battery unless it is disconnected. With the small capacity of all the later fitted batteries, this means they get discharges in about 3 weeks unless trickle charged.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 09:20
Just seen a mention of another Lithium battery, http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/lithium-ion-anti-gravity-batts.9927/" rel="nofollow - Anti-Gravity , made in USA, not China.
Comparison between the two can be found http://antigravitybatteries.com/antigravity-batteries-vs-shorai-comparison/" rel="nofollow - here .


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Oldrat
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 09:27
What size of lithium battery (amps) , shorai or anti gravity, does a large tonti need.

It might even fit in the seat hump of my project.

Cheers



Posted By: Guztave
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 09:35
Thanks for this comparison link - very interesting


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 09:41
Oldrat, the key point is the output in terms of amps (CCA). Even the smallest Lithium battery will give more CCA than the normal Lead Acid you would have as standard.
Even http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/antigravity-micro-mini/" rel="nofollow - this would give the output of your normal LA battery (for a short time). Just check the size.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Oldrat
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 13:58

Brian, now you've completely thrown me with that iphone sized gadget!
I'll start a new thread as I don't want to hijack this one. Cheers.


Posted By: tonewuk
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 14:55
On my Spada project,I am using a a Westco 22amp battery a lot smaller than stock,Gives loads of room around it.I could not justify a Lithium battery.


Posted By: Biggles
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 16:49
The advice, for the moment at least, has to be don't use lithium batteries on your bikes unless your bike is designed to charge them, or the battery has in inbuilt system that will accept your bikes present charging system :

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries" rel="nofollow - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries


-------------
Best Wishes

Nigel


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 17:10
Well certainly reading that, a bike charging system which goes up to 14.5 volts would be overcharging considerably if the Lithium battery runs at 4.2 volts per cell, that's 3 cells and 12.6 volts fully charged.
 
Interesting. Overcharging can cause heat build up, and as many may have heard there were problems on aircraft using lithium batteries which caused a fire.
Could be useful on a cold day with the battery under the seat though.
 
Lithium batteries seem to be in relatively common use in the States, where the saving of 5 pounds in weight on a fully loaded bike - with 15 stone rider - is considered worth the expense. Not heard of any problems so far. Equally with the litigious attitude in that country, I would be surprised if a US company would advertise these for use as replacements for lead acid.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Biggles
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2015 at 17:17
I wonder if they've built voltage limiting circuitry into the batteries there ?

That wouldn't get you over the trickle charge effect though.

It struck me as odd when I read the post, hence I googled it, because the charging circuits I've seen (which isn't many), are notably different in design (electronically) from what I'm used to seeing.


-------------
Best Wishes

Nigel


Posted By: lawny
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 16:02
Brian,

It looks like this winter (or just age) has done for my expensive lithium battery. 

I think I'm going to go back to a lead/acid plus a solar panel as you suggest. I have a 4W panel that I use for the leisure battery in my shed which I shall try first.  However, it is wired with a cigarette lighter connector so my question is: do you know if the Norge 12V socket will allow me to charge through that or is there a diode in the way ?

 


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 16:51
Yes you can charge through the accessory socket.
 
How old was the lithium battery? Has it discharged and won't take a charge now?
 
Lithium batteries should not be discharged lower than 3.3volts per cell. The inbuilt protection circuitry stops you charging it.
But as always there can be a way round it, but it means getting into the battery itself and charging carefully onto the battery terminals.
I have recovered phone type batteries this way. I read it on a drone forum. They use a lot of lithium batteries. They connected one good battery up to the discharged one directly and once the old one got over 3.3v they were able to charge again normally.
However, I'm sure it doesn't help the capacity.
 
In your case I guarantee it's the slow drain of the ECU which caused its demise.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: lawny
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 18:53
Thanks Brian

its a Shorai and I find to my surprise that I bought it in 2012 so its just under 6 years old.  I expect it will charge again after a few hours on the special charger because Ive done that before but I get a sense that its not as it once was (are any of us?).

I agree its the ECU drain and a lack of use. However, I fully charged it a couple of weeks ago and then rode for a couple of hours a day or two later but today it was dead. 

I've an old yellow Motobatt that I normally use for a water butt pump so I've put that on for now but I'll invest in something newer during the week.

BTW I still have issues with charging; after cleaning the fuses and the 3-way I get randomly 13.7 - 14.0 across the terminals and 13.3 on the dash.  I suspect that when she is hot the volts drop which wont help charging. A while ago I set out to look at all the wiring but while I was fiddling under the tank the rains came so I had to put it back together pronto.  Perhaps its time I tried again.


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 21:05
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:


Well certainly reading that, a bike charging system which goes up to 14.5 volts would be overcharging considerably if the Lithium battery runs at 4.2 volts per cell, that's 3 cells and 12.6 volts fully charged.


Something not reading right with the figures in the link. Lithium ion (nominal 12v) should be charged if voltage drops to 13.1v and not be allowed to fall below 13.0v, a fully charged voltage for Lithium ion is 14.4v (source: Shorai). One of the issues with this type of battery is their narrow voltage resilience: they need a high voltage charge (14.4-14.8v)but anything over 15.0v charging and they're toast! Might be because of their thin plates (hence light weight). Some Lead Acid battery chargers can come with an automatic de-sulphonation cycle which means high voltage, great for LA but a killer for Lithium ion.

Cold weather starting: interestingly Shorai recommend "warming" the Lithium ion battery before using it to start an engine in cold weather. This means at 5C run headlight for 30 seconds before starting, at -17C this extends to leaving light on for 4-5 minutes before using battery to start engine. Quite unnatural to users brought up on LA batteries.

Tony


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 08:09
Originally posted by lawny lawny wrote:


BTW I still have issues with charging; after cleaning the fuses and the 3-way I get randomly 13.7 - 14.0 across the terminals and 13.3 on the dash.  I suspect that when she is hot the volts drop which wont help charging. A while ago I set out to look at all the wiring but while I was fiddling under the tank the rains came so I had to put it back together pronto.  Perhaps its time I tried again.
I had the same issue with my Norge. Found a badly heated connector in the alternator output wire.
I ended up adding a new heavier wire direct from the alternator to the battery positive. Now get 14.5v at the battery and 14.3v on the dash.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 08:12
Regarding the lithium batteries, do you know what voltage per cell they have? What I quoted seems to be the standard. But all lithium batteries contain electronics too to control the charge - tends to help avoid them bursting into a fireball.

-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 10:13
Brian, the figures I provided come from the Shorai website, the battery used by Lawny. Shorai do not provide information by cell. They do produce 6v and 12v batteries so this does not sound like they use 4v cells.

https://www.shoraidirect.com/en/installation-guides" rel="nofollow - https://www.shoraidirect.com/en/installation-guides
contains more than just Installation.

http://store.shoraipower.com/FAQ.html" rel="nofollow - http://store.shoraipower.com/FAQ.html


Tony



Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 11:22
This website provides that a lithium ion (polymer) battery contains 4 cells of nominal 3.2v, with a fully charged rate is 3.5v each.

The "safe" maximum charge rate is 4.2v per cell but this lwvel of overcharge will lead to plate degredation.

https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm


Tony


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 14:05
So if they use those cells, 4 would give 14v fully charged, but going much over 14v would not be good.
It also means that a normally charged battery should read about 12.8v.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: lawny
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 20:20
I dont know about the cells but the battery after charging would normally stand at @13.3-5V.  Charging seems to be about 14.4V across the terminals but the charger doesn't actually use the main poles.  Instead, there is a small 4 pin socket front and centre that accepts the charger male.

Part of my problem is lack of use combined with the usual power drain.  The problem with the Shorai is that I cant hook up to a trickle charger; the Shorai charger will do this but the bike is outside on our front drive.  So the obvious answer is a solar charger but they can reach 20V no load and I've never dared try one given the dire voltage warnings from Shorai.

When happy the Shorai is very impressive at starting.  There is always the minor thought of fire Nukebut its never happened and i dont remember ever reading of a bike fire like that. You do get used to a changed routine of:  switch on, helmet, gloves, checks, sit, press go   rather than   switch on press go Smile


Posted By: TooJuicy
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 22:17
Lawny, generally lithium batteries need a higher voltage charge than Lead Acid batteries to reach 100% charge. LA will charge fully at 14.4v but consensus advice is that Lithium ion (polymer) batteries need -/- 14.8v for the last (40% ?) charging stage.

Indeed the battery technologies are quite different: the Shorai Lithium ion cells do not share the charge capacity like LA batteries do, with Li the charge of each cell has to be managed separately. With LA you just connect 'em all and charge all at once. Hence the dedicated charge point and management circuitry on your Li.

Having said a typical 12v Li battery needs 14.8 v to fully charge, they have a narrow tolerance to charging and above 15v the Li battery would fail rapidly. Not something you've mentioned but on the same theme the Float charge rate used for a LA battery is too low for a Li so don't keep a Li battery hooked up to a Smart charger designed for LA batteries.

As has been said, Li is not a guaranteed new & better technology, just new & different. Where Li can excel is when it is hooked up to devices designed specifically for Li plates (not those designed for diffetent LA technology).

Tony



Posted By: Theomarakas
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2018 at 22:55
I've been using the USA made EarthX batteries on my Aprilias with awesome results. They are extremely well made, they have a BMS to avoid over charge or undercharge and automatically balances the cells without using special chargers. I wouldn't recommend any of those budget lithium batteries, they are dangerous and can set your bike and house on fire. Go with the best and forget the rest. One of my co-workers is an airplane pilot and they only use two batteries. Odyssey or EarthX. nothing else.

-------------
The "goose"


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 09:26
I doubt Tesla use budget batteries either.

Just google Tesla fire and see just how many have gone up in smoke, not due to accidental damage either.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: rapheal
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 09:35
Originally posted by lawny lawny wrote:

I have a Shorai on my Norge.  it is certainly lighter and smaller than the Yuasa that came as stock but costs twice as much.

I suffer from the dreaded no-start on occasion when the voltage drops and the 15Amp fuse blows.  The Shorai does much better than the various lead-acid batteries that I've tried but nothing seems to solve it completely (short of doing the relay by-pass, I presume).  

My Norge lives outside under one of the folding tent things and in the winter
a) I can't leave it on trickle charge and 
b) it gets very cold sometimes - not good for the lead acids.    

My impression is that the Shorai stands the cold much better than the Yuasa or any other conventional battery.  Plus, if you do want to remove it for charging (not essential as there is a cable for it on-board) or for fiddling with something else , it is easier than lead-acid simply because of the weight.   


my mate has a Solar Battery charger on his, and in the very cold dark weather he pops the battery off over winter and brings it in to charge it


Posted By: rapheal
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 09:35
Originally posted by Brian UK Brian UK wrote:

I doubt Tesla use budget batteries either.

Just google Tesla fire and see just how many have gone up in smoke, not due to accidental damage either.

They dont like getting wet either
18 inches of water and the car is scrap


Posted By: sardineone
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 22:58
I just wanted to add to the discussion on Lithium Iron batteries.  I've been Beta testing mine now for 9 years on an unlikely machine.  You see I'm using it on my 'Nuclear EMP' doomsday machine that still has points ignition and mechanical relay voltage regulator charging system.  My semi-retired Lemans 1000 is my vintage rider now days which means it sits in the unheated garage over the Winter.  With a fair amount of down time between rides my Shorai battery has met my expectations with only an occasional charge over the Winter months with a conventional 2A auto shut off car charger.  I suspect results could be different on a more modern bike with parasitic current draw when the bike is just sitting like my 06' BMW R1200ST for example.  My BMW is my main rider and for all season duty the AGM option seems to be my best choice.  On the other hand for my low tech vintage (member of the family) Guzzi the Li PE option has worked out pretty well, cranking better than a AGM in warmer weather.
 
Shorai LFX Lithium-Iron Battery-Dirt Bike


-------------
George

One owner 86' Lemans 1000 (member of the family) / BMW R1200ST (current work horse)

You are what you have ridden!


Posted By: Theomarakas
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 14:55
Today's lithium batteries are far better than the batteries from 10 years ago. Much safer, more reliable and lighter. The old ones were dangerous, they would combust and explode putting out super hot fires and many people lost their motorcycles.....like my supervisor's MV Agusta. His bike burned to the ground and putting out the fire wasn't easy. I NEVER leave batteries on a charger without supervision, much less a lithium ion battery. Some Chinese made batteries are poorly made, budget, people have lost homes thanks to them.

-------------
The "goose"


Posted By: Lucy
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2019 at 18:46
Be careful charging Lithium batteries at low temperature or after it’s been flat for a while. Just ask Boeing?!
https://www.minipcr.com/safety-hazard-warnings-for-lithium-ion-batteries/" rel="nofollow - https://www.minipcr.com/safety-hazard-warnings-for-lithium-ion-batteries/



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