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Rusty tank.

Printed From: guzziriders.org - moto guzzi forum
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Spine Frame
Forum Description: V11 etc.
URL: http://www.guzziriders.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=9942
Printed Date: 21 Nov 2019 at 06:20
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.02 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Rusty tank.
Posted By: 668joe
Subject: Rusty tank.
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2019 at 19:43
Hi all, just joined up as I need help. I have had stood in my garage a 1000 Daytona 1993 and I've just had it collected to get MOT'd and back on the road. Before it went off I had put a new battery on and turned it over a few times. I then proceeded to try and fire it up but realised it had no fuel. I then opened up the tank to see rust and more rust growing like moss!. I mentioned this to the chap as he took away the bike and after a few hours of him gaming i he called saying I need a new tank. He said he can give a clean but from his experience, it's had it. Does anyone know where I can get one or anyone had experience with tank sealing??. Regards. Joe.



Replies:
Posted By: Chris950s
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 09:35
Clean it out (someone on here recommended a de-rust product recently) but don't coat the inside unless the coating is ethanol proof. FD Motorcycles in Gt Dunmow strap tanks to a vibrating table and then put old nuts and bolts in the tank, it removes all loose rust, then flush out with paraffin. They don't coat the inside with anything and advised me that if you do you will not be able to weld any holes or splits in the future.

-------------
Chris and Karen - Essex
2011 Stelvio NTX, 1974 950S (750S replica still in bits), 1966 Triumph T100SS 53 years young this year!


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 10:19
A technique I've read of (but have no experience of) is to strap it inside a cement mixer, put a couple of litres of water and a handful of old nuts & bolts inside then switch on and retire for a couple of hours.

That does need the tank to be well padded and for considerable confidence......


-------------
Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: George S
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 20:19
I have removed rust from a couple of tanks successfully using the following method
Remove taps and blank holes.
Add white vinegar and nuts bolts screws etc. shake up tank leave a while shake up tank repeat few times leave over night. This will remove loose rust.
Mix washing soda or baking soda with water one table spoon per gallon and fill tank to brim.
Using iron or steel rod as sacrificial anode attach 12 volt battery positive wire to anode, negative wire to tank. Reaction will attract rust to anode leaving tank clean. the more rust the longer it takes, anything from one day to week or more.You might have to renew water mix. Flush out when completed.
I agree with the above and do not like the internal tank seal. Spray with WD40 when finished this protects until you are ready to use.
Cheap simple and it works.


-------------
George

1994 Nevada
1957 Cardellino 73cc
1961 Zigolo 110cc
1961 Stornello 125cc
Son's 1990 1000S to borrow any time


Posted By: ranton_rambler
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 12:40
I have used the reverse electrolysis method too. I think it actually does a bit more than pulling the rust off the tank. The electrode gets "plated" onto the tank so no thickness is lost, unlike the more common acid wash with vinegar or Spirit of Salts.
The washing soda is available from Wilko for about £1.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 07:17
Joe,
I do NOT recommend you use any of these sealing products at this stage, as the ethanol content in petrol increases they become increasingly likely to fail.

I have a Kawasaki W650 that I left in my garage for a couple of years with the sh*t they call perol in these days with similar results to yours.
A real expert on the Velo Forum recommended some stuff and it was great, cost about £18.. Can't rememebr offhand what it was called but I'll rummage in the garage and find the bottle and get back to you..

Cheers,

Adrian
Bristol UK


Posted By: Ben.
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 07:42
Finally fit a new inline fuel filter and check your float bowls.
Check the dates on the tyres if it has stood a long time -- regardless of tread depth. The rubber deteriorates with age.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 09:20
Joe,
Have been out to the garage & found the bottle..

It's called " Deox C" by Bilt Hamber 

Available from a number of sources, I bought mine direct:-
https://www.bilthamber.com/deox-c" rel="nofollow - https://www.bilthamber.com/deox-c

It is best with a bit of heat - I left my tank outside on a table during one of the hottest days of last Summer. The great thing about this stuff is that it doesn't harm the paint, mine was unmarked and stayed that way....

No connection apart from satisfied user etc etc..

The other thing is NEVER use ordinary grade unleaded fuel in a bike..  I alwaus use the "Super" 97 Octane, preferably from a good brand, Esso, Shell etc. The ordinary 95 stuff is only suitable for lawn mowers, cars etc....

Hope this helps, I know what a shock to find a tank in this state is like.... I was quoted £800 for a new one which I did not need...

Cheers,
Adrian
Bristol UK


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 10:12
Never had problems with "ordinary" 95 octane in any bike* or car.

*including 955i Triumph Tiger, Suzuki V-Strom, Honda SLR650, Honda 400 4, Velo Venom, BSA A10, Matchless G80S, Ariel Arrow, Triumph Speed Twin, Sunbeam Model 10, Norton ES2, and of course Guzzi V50.

Most if not all have been left for at least 6 months with petrol in the tank (with no additives) and all have started promptly and run perfectly afterwards. Maybe the petrol in the Midlands is better......


-------------
Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 10:21
The idea that ethanol causes rust in a steel tank is absolute baloney. Similarly the grade of petrol will have no effect.

Leaving the tank empty (or nearly so) for a period of time will be the main cause.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 17:23
Brian / Ian,
Have to disagree on this I'm afraid.. My W650 tank was more than 3/4 full..  The tank contained 95Ron fuel as that is what was recommended. The result was large flakes of rust floating in the bottom of the tank. I suspect these were the remains of some internal baffling at the top that got attacked. I guess that if  it had been totally full I might have got away with it - sadly it wasn't..

The bike had done 600 miles from new, I was not pleased.. !

I'm sure if you use the stuff quickly then 95 "premium" unleaded is ok. Just to be sure however I will never use it in any of my bikes, regardless of age.
The "Super" costs more but some brands (Esso) in many areas does not contain ethanol at all. The extra octane helps with bikes like my Venom which were designed to run on 98+

95 has never been a problem in cars, most modern fuel systems were designed with it in mind.

You are welcome to use it for bikes, I do not intend to do so. I also use a small "dash" of Redex after I fill up (bikes, not cars) as I bought a load of it when Asda were selling it off cheap.
I do not believe for a moment it cleans anything but it's a bit like 2-stroke oil and sticks to the inside of my fuel tanks - none of my bikes have ever needed liner...

You pays yer money, you takes yer choice !!

All the best,

Adrian
Brsitol UK


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 17:25
Ian,
Maybe I'd better come to the Midlands to fill up in future.... Smile
Impressive list, how many do you have now??
Cheers,
Adrian
Bristol UK



Posted By: Brian UK
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 22:22
If you had rust like that in a tank after just 600 miles from new then that rust had started long before you took delivery. Unless of course the bike was actually left like that for several years.

Rust isn't something which happens in a flash.

Rust also requires moisture and oxygen, a steel boat hull will rust mostly at the waterline where both are present.


-------------
Brian.

Better 5 minutes late in this world than years early in the next.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 09:22
Hi Brian,
The bike got progressively harder to start so it got left for a long time. After all, it was Japanese, what could possibly go wrong??
Ethanol attracts moisture, time did the rest... 

I had other bikes to ride at the time and I had only bought it for "later" when kicking over a 500 single became an issue.. Well, it's now over 13 years later and I can still kick over a single but find the "W" has put on weight and is now a bit heavy..   Just shows planning ahead ia a bad idea.....

Cheers,

Adrian
Bristol UK


Posted By: iansoady
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 11:52
Originally posted by AdrianW AdrianW wrote:

Ian,
Maybe I'd better come to the Midlands to fill up in future.... Smile
Impressive list, how many do you have now??
Cheers,
Adrian
Bristol UK



Hi Adrian.

Sadly I lack the space for any more than 2 at a time so just the V50 and the Norton ES2, both of which I plan to keep for some time (although the best-laid plans......)

When I took early retirement I decided to buy & restore bikes I'd never owned as although I've always had at least one machine in the garage most have been Nortons (apart from a brief dalliance with a V50 when my first Commando was stolen in the early 1980s). These have always been accompanied by a modern bike - currently the V50 although some may say that 37 years old is hardly "modern".

The first modern I bought was the 955i Tiger which was a lovely bike but after a replacement knee operation I decided it was just too tall and heavy. The first "classic" was the Velo which I had to have as I live about half a mile from the original factory site.....

Going back to fuel, I must say I've never used supermarket petrol. Not intentionally, just that I rarely pass them and my local outlets are BP, Shell and Texaco.


-------------
Ian
1982 V50
1952 Norton ES2


Posted By: Ben.
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 12:24
My step-father worked for Texaco, he was chief engineer on the Texaco Gulf Western,  and it may have been from him that I got the impression that petrol has a "shelf-life" which in turn affects its value.
I don't know if it can be assumed that the cheaper it is, the older it is, and that petrol stations offering cheaper petrol are selling an older product, but it would seem to represent the way markets operate.

I like fresh eggs and old wine. No-one tells me how old the petrol is.
I used to be a subject.
Then a citizen.
Then a consumer.
Presently a punter.


Posted By: AdrianW
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 12:26
Hi Ian,
the ES2 is a lovely bike..  I have never owned a Norton, they are getting expensive now but perhaps I should try one...
I hang out with the AJS & Matchless lot here & there's a guy called George who also owns a bike we all covet. It's a green & cream featherbed ES2, around 1960 I think.. He's had it forever & has done huge mileages (eg a trip to Moscow when it was still the USSR) on it. Never let him down.

There was a recent run to Sammy Miller's which I backed out of (MSS clutch started adjusting itself!!) & apparently George got through about 4 plugs in 200 miles. It seems he had filled up at Sainsbury's for a change (there had been rumours about diesel contamination there).. He did get home eventually - you are wise not to use supermarket fuel I suspect....

All the best,

Adrian



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