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Single TB 750 AND V7Mk2 e.f.i. Accessory

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motopete View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 17:20
Out of interest, when you say "cleared the tables" what exactly did you do?

AFAIK the ECU doesn't learn, it just reads sensor inputs (engine speed, TPS, intake air temp, cylinder temp, exhaust lambda) to trim the mixture from the base map values.

I assume the base map isn't too far off ideal since some people run with the lambda's disconnected.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jefrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 20:29
The ECU does learn in a primitive manner. There are two 10x10 look-up tables from the Lambdas, one for hot the other cold, it applies these to the base map. Disconnecting the battery or the main fuse powers down the system and clears the tables. 
This was suggested on here but is a fairly common trick with car ECU which can also get their shorts in a bunch, for example refuses to idle because it thinks its TPS is at full throttle (afaik the Guzzi ECU only stores data from the Lambdas). What can happen is false data or 'outliers' get stored which offset what it should be doing. The data are cumulative, the system keeps adding to them; the data set can get skewed. It effectively resets the system.  

There should be, because there usually is, some method of resetting or recalibrating the TPS. I don't know what it is on this bike, it varies from one vehicle to the next. Resets the 0% to 100% throttle position, which affects idle. On the other bike it's something like open throttle 100%, switch on and wait for lights to blink then close throttle and wait for another blink then switch off and wait 30 seconds; car is similar too. It's not normally in the manual.


I did disconnect the Lambdas but figured they're supposed to be connected; I get better results using a wide-band O2 on the other bike than without - but with a Power Commander custom map. 

I seem to be getting, and this is subjective, better result with the Lambdas connected but with the tables cleared. But note I have also mopped out oil from the air box, which should not have been in there, and probably contributed to any problem.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jefrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2018 at 11:16
I should also perhaps say I am not getting decel popping and I am not getting the flat spot on pick-up from idle, both of which are something of a feature of electronic fuel injection.  I do have stock exhaust and silencers.

From some experience with the other bike, it is possible to get better response and fuelling with injectors than with a carburettor. A carb will often give smoother throttle response making it nicer to ride but modern bikes unfortunately have their mapping set to pass emission regulations; but is it possible to dial that out. There are several methods but perhaps the most common is to adjust the map especially at the bottom end.

Which is all a lot of these box of tricks do.

Which is what a Dynojet Power Commander will do in spades but also enable tuning the entire map and ignition, but I am not sure a Power Commander will work on a V7ii, probably not from what I've read. Dynojet do not list a fitment for V7ii
Note (NB) A Power Commander can send your insurance premiums right up, maybe double; not always a good option. And they won't produce highly significant performance improvement, mainly they'll provide a more responsive throttle.


Edited by jefrs - 01 Oct 2018 at 11:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 20:05
Or just remove the lambda sensors (which put the ECU into closed loop and weaken the mixture below 4000rpm) and the map will go back to how Mr Guzzi probably wrote it before it had to be tweaked to pass E4 rules.
All these gizzmos may do the job, but add complexity and cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dinsdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 06:21
G'day all, from West Oz.  Been lurking for a while, but few posts so far.

I have a 2017 V7iii.  My 1st Gutz, though my 7th Latin lassie.  It suffered all of the ailments I've just read about for the earlier models - in spades!  I bit the bullet eventually and paid Todd (GuzziTech in California) for his fueling solution.  I also bought his complete 2>2 exhaust system https://gtmotocycles.com/collections/exhaust/products/gt-motocycles-ss-v7iii-gp-megs .
https://gtmotocycles.com/collections/fueling/products/gt-motocycles-v7-v9-ecu-re-flash-tool .

My bike went from an almost unrideable pig to one of the best ever bikes.  Mine started at equal to the worst descriptions in this thread.  But now:

Absolutely no exhaust popping.
It will idle (literally) along smoothly up to 4th gear - a bit snatchy in 5th and 6th.
I can, with not too much clutch slip, move off from stationary at idle.
Throttle response is instant and smooth.  Power just rolls on like silk - even from idle.
I have noticeably more torque from about 2,000rpm onwards - right to the rev limiter. 
I happily use 6th gear in town at 60kph - obviously straight flat road.
When fanging through mountain roads I keep hitting the rev limiter.
It hauls real hard all the way - never runs out of breath.
58 to 60 mpg (British gallons) no matter what I'm doing - mountain twisties or across the Nuliabor.
23,000Km on it so far (14mths old) and just getting better all the time.
1 button push in any weather and it starts, idles flawlessly and can be ridden smoothly straight away.
Yep, even in Oz (Snowy Mtns) I've had morning starts in sub-zero temps.

Todd's gizmo isn't cheap, but it converted about the worst bike ever owned into about the best.  Fed his map (tailor made for my bike, my mods and my riding style) into the ECU and haven't had to do anything since.  I used to be able to induce pinging under hard acceleration using 91 octane (RON).  Had to use 95.  Now it runs absolutely perfectly on 91.

I really struggle to say enough positive about GuzziTech's solution - and I am in no way connected to GuzziTech other than as another satisfied customer.




Edited by Dinsdale - 08 Feb 2019 at 06:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 10:05
I honestly can't understand why customers should need to spend yet more of their hard earned on putting right faults that Piaggio should have sorted out years ago. It's not like FI or electronic systems are even new technology but Piaggio apparently still can't get it right. Just like the plastic fuel tank fiasco, the problem is passed on to the customer to either put up with or rectify at their own expense. We must be the easiest bunch of marks to stiff when it comes to marketing defective products.
V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 10:30
Just try getting any modified bike through the current emissions controls, then you might understand why Piaggio are having the problem. I would more or less guarantee that Todd's remap would not pass. Neither would any bike fitted with any other aftermarket gizmo.

We are fortunate because as owners, no further checks are made, but the manufacturer has to abide by the rules.

And before anyone mentions VW, their stupidity has cost them a lot.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 11:17
My point is Brian, Piaggio are a major manufacturer who must have the resources, technology and presumably brains, to sort out these things regardless of the emission control regulations. It shouldn't be necessary for Joe Bloggs in a shed with his soldering iron and a bunch of bits from Radio Shack to find a way of making the things work properly. Regardless of whether emissions are tested under the UK MOT or not I can't help but think that if Piaggio can keep on getting away with, it then they will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 12:07
But Joe Bloggs isn't making them work properly, he's making them work, but outside the law as such.

The other question is, why are some bikes seemingly worse than others, I mean the same model owned by different people? Is that down to quality control or rider perception?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 12:39
I fitted the FatDuc to mine because the engine ran very hot and could be a bugger to start at times after a short stop. White spark plugs anyone? The other reason was the unpleasant engine hunting on a steady throttle. Now it warms up faster and has a much better throttle response. OK the engine management light makes an appearance now and then but not for long! I still think it should not be the job of the customer to fix problems. The days of giving the tele a sharp rap to get the picture steady are long past, thank goodness, so why should we expect less from an expensive bit of machinery?
V7 Classic Black and gold is the best colour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave P. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 12:51
But Bob, Piaggio are producing in the V7 range a retro machine.In doing, so they are following in the fine tradition of BSA, Norton, Triumph of old. Manufacturer takes the money, customer develops the product.
TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE LAW YOU MUST BE HONEST.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 13:23
Very true.

But if they fitted the manufacturer's equivalent of the fat duc, they would not be allowed to sell it as it would not conform to the EU and US pollution standards. I'm guessing, with that engine design, what you get is all they can do to pass the Euro standards.
The new 850 will hopefully be better in this respect.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobV7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 13:37
Very true Dave. But history shows that as soon as the buyers were presented with the alternative products of those cunning buggers from the far east the names you mention sank slowly beneath the waves only to be seen once again through rose tinted spectacles!

Brian, I'm not suggesting that the bikes should come with the emission cheaters we can fit, I'm saying they should have come properly sorted in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian UK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 14:07
And as I said, with the design of these engines, it's possible that they have doone the best they can to be legal.
Brian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote motopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 14:58
What seems odd to me is this: Dinsdale's post is all about a V7 III... it has a brand new engine top-end designed for today's emission standards.

I was led to believe the latest engines (V7III, V9, V85) should run happily within Euro 4 limits, unlike the heron head design in V7 & V7II that struggles to meet Euro 3.

I fear the reluctance to fit an oil cooler, or even go semi-water cooled, could make the new Guzzi engines fall well behind the competition in terms of rideability.  The new (and cheap) Royal Enfield 650 has an oil cooler...

I look forward to testing the V85 and see how the production version performs in the real world...
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