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V7 850 my first impressions

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Andy M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 09:54
Don't assume oil change intervals are based on technical considerations.

This is a business defining its interaction with its customers to generate ongoing income. It is also looking at the costs of communication in producing different manuals for different markets. 

This is why you will occasionally be sent a new owners book when they get it wrong. For example Triumph upped the Bonneville 790 from 4000 to 6000 at the same time as Harley launched a new 883 with the higher intervals.

On a Honda you can safely miss the 600 change completely and then double the oil change intervals. The factory process is clean and makes parts to the final shape, the service intervals are set for commuting through Bangkok.

On a Guzzi that's made by men in a shed using tools that might randomly be 60 years old you of course have to be more cautious. Personally I'll be getting the engine oil analysis done at 12000 miles and tailoring a plan from there.

Andy 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 10:33
Honda extended the expensive valve check interval on the last VFR 800 V-tech from 16,000 to 24000 miles for the same reason. (There were no significant changes to the engine etc throughout its model life). I suspect that there’s an element of kicking the can down the road to minimise PCP payments….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 14:54
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10211301-0001.pdf

I'm not sure if this has been posted on this forum already but you might find it informative. I suppose that's a good reason to have your bike serviced at an official dealer (mine won't allow them to hook up to PADS to turn off the service indicator so I don't suppose they'll let me have map updates without their serving the bike either).
FWIW I received my UpMap kit today. This will allow me to remap my Special's ECU to suit the Mistral Exhausts. I believe it also has an added bonus: I should be able to download the official map. I assume that this is in case I want to put it back to standard. However, I understand that what you download is the latest map, not necessarily the one installed on the bike's ECU, so I should be able to keep updating my maps without recourse to a stealer.
For interest/information of others, I'll let you know how the bike performs with the remap and what standard map number I get (if I can determine this). It will probably be a few days before I do this.
Please note: I am happy to try after-market maps in an endeavour to get my bikes to run as well as they can. You may well disagree; fair enough. I'm not getting into an argument about whether or not it's the right thing to do. If it's no better (or is worse) I'll report my findings truthfully anyway - I can (hopefully) revert to the standard map anyway. I'm not sure I would have bothered installing the UpMap map (ahem) for the standard exhaust and air filter, but I'm a bit sceptical about claims that a less restrictive exhaust can work with the standard map as long as the baffles are in place, hence the experiment. If all else fails I'll have a handy bluetooth app on my phone to run the diagnostics...Watch this space.
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Andy M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 18:56
Interesting Thumbs Up

What year/month is your bike?

I am happy with the fuelling etc. since removing St. Greta's box, so have no intention of letting dealer muppets near it, but the option via the UpMap is good to know about.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 19:45
June 2021. I had the dealer do the 900 mile service, at which I assumed the then latest update was done (I believe that was released in June but whether or not mine had it updated before being commissioned don’t know. I bought it with 500 miles on the clock. The first owner, a multiple bike owner, I’m told, didn’t like it. I can understand why, though it’s way better now. Those who have tried UpMap, mostly Merikans, seem to rate it though it’s a bit of a faff to get and not cheap (but I’ll recover that cost over the years as I’ll service it myself. I’m a bit intrigued by the reference to the ABS reset - we tend to think that new maps are all about fuelling…
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 07:40
Mine is September 21.

There is no such thing as an "ABS reset", believe me I've been designing and selling systems since last century.

What the Guzzi bulletin seems to be on about is their weird ASR calibration. The ASR looks at the vehicle speed based on two wheel sensors and maybe gearbox data. When the rear wheel accelerates outside set parameters it chops the throttle (or maybe ignition). Not spinning up the rear wheel reduces the chances of it sliding laterally. It's 1980's technology and a freebie on any vehicle that has ABS and means to reduce the RPM under a command signal.

The tyre diameter is a factor and driven wheels usually wear faster. A modern system simply stores values after each ignition on and modifies the ASR reaction to account for wear or new tyres. Moto Guzzi don't seem to have this, or maybe they do but their lawyers and service providers want extra. They have this teach in process. Do some hideous Casio style button pushing and go for a ride and it stores the tyre values. The updated seems to change the light sequence that tells you this worked. 

This ASR is hideously crude. I'd disable it if I could. This might be a factor of the V-Twin and/of if they are killing the spark rather than using the CANbus to command an RPM reduction. The poor function and the fact a failed ASR activation during tyre factor setting might result in an off is maybe why they made it a manual process (and they want the tyre fitting business). Some American will give it a handful then sue them. 

I changed my tyres, ignored the instructions and there is no ill effect. ASR works and is just as horrible as ever.

For clarity ASR is what journalists refer to as "traction control". They are wrong, traction is controlled by tyre designers and the navvies who laid the tarmac. Systems people can only limit acceleration to the available traction. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 08:18
Thanks for the clarification; I used ABS reset term from memory (and got it wrong…). Nevertheless I find it interesting that MG is updating the ECU…. FWIW my brother gave up on and sold his Roamer because the traction control on it made it almost unrideable at low revs. He never knew whether or not the engine would stall and so he had to take off like a scalded cat to ensure it didn’t- not great two-up, as he mostly is. Me, I just set mine to level 1 and leave it. I wish I could leave it off but this isn’t possible. I really can’t be bothered to turn it off each time and the warning light is irritating - hence the compromise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 10:40
After reading all this I am glad I went for one of the last non-ABS V7s, a 2014 model.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 12:30
No way would I be without the ABS. The ability to just brake hard regardless of the conditions and achieve the maximum decel is a huge safety factor.

The ASR would be useful if not as crude. As it is I'd like to be able to permanently turn it off and not have a flashing light all the time to prove it. A 60 HP bike of this weight doesn't need it. 

ABS of this 1970's technology level has nothing that cannot be diagnosed with a multi-meter. The ASR calibration only amounts to pushing the button in the right sequence then riding a mile.

I had a 2014 V7. A totally different animal. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 13:50
Interim update: UpMap Bluetooth device registered and paired to bike’s ECU. Appropriate map (for exhaust) downloaded and flashed to ECU. It lives! (Always a slight concern, but it worked). Not sure when I can get out to test it (other duties, marital harmony etc) but it sounds ok and picks up quickly.
At the moment I’m putting the battery on charge. It has to be healthy or the re-flash could fail. (That is one of the reasons I loathe not having a lights on switch. With an H4 bulb the current draw while performing all this is a concern. I used to pull a couple of fuses on my 865 Thruxton EFI when remapping that so that the battery drain is minimised).
The App has an option to download the original map. I’ll do this at a later date. Whether or not I’ll be able to tell if it’s the latest I don’t know. Watch this space (or not, please yourselves😊)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R100CS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 14:11
Well... if I'm going to please myself, I don't have watching this page in mind...I'd rather go ride my bike but with the cold I'm having that's not feasible (no wipers on the inside of my visor) so I might opt for whatching this now and then.
1st R100CS flattened by a truck
2nd R1150R modified
3rd V7iii GREEN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 07:19
I am a huge fan of ABS, it prevents a “snatch reaction” losing the front end in an emergency situation, and it’ll save an off if you are surprised to find yourself on a random gravel patch as you’re braking.  Of course we all try not to be in those situations, but a bit of help when it’s needed is most welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 08:00
As long as the ABS on the bike doesn’t cut in too early and doesn’t then release the brakes too early/long affording the rider no means of slowing I’m in favour of it. I used to have a BMW F800GT on which after activating the ABS then left me with no brakes for a spell. Most odd and dangerous. The less said about BMW servo ABS brakes and the company’s earlier versions, the better. My other point is that ABS was developed as a safety aid, not a means of allowing late/hard braking. I can’t remember the last time the ABS cut in on either of my current bikes (I don’t ride off road). Personally I’d buy another bike without ABS; I’m happy either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 08:44
Originally posted by Speciality Speciality wrote:

As long as the ABS on the bike doesn’t cut in too early and doesn’t then release the brakes too early/long affording the rider no means of slowing I’m in favour of it.

Not possible on the road. It's a simple feedback loop. The decel curve peaks, the brakes are held or released, they spin up, the cycle is repeated. Type approval (K-search test) requires the full function ABS decel (MFDD) to be within 10% of the decel available from the best of multiple stops using a pressure regulator to tweak up and up until you get lock. I never witnessed an approval worse than 98% and the reaction time alone means the practical stop is way shorter.

Loose surfaces need mode change to allow for deeper slip. The very crude systems on bikes do lack this. 

Flashing ECU's is always fraught. I've wrecked a couple in my time. You are looking for voltage, so connecting a second battery in parallel or even the battery charger is a possible safety net. I'd usually work with the engine running, but given we have to key off on bikes because they won't give us full laptop access that isn't a possibility.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 09:13
The ABS thing: my F800GT definitely had an issue, whatever the theory. Maybe it was faulty, but it never activated a fault message. What used to happen was that on a stretch of damp road the ABS would activate, then release the pressure in the hydraulic system, resulting in the bike continuing to move forwards even though the brake lever was pulled on. The system was not pulsing during this brief time. The bike ran on. It is the only bike I’ve had of the many I’ve owned with ABS that showed this trait. IIRC it was as mentioned as an oddity on the F800 forums at the time.
Re flashing an ECU, I’ve done a few (or in one case - an oilhead BMW, replaced the fuelling chip on the ECU motherboard), but so far I’ve not fried one. UpMap does a check on battery voltage and determines whether or not it’s high enough (> or = to 12.5 volts). The pairing process between the App and the dongle takes around 5 minutes, after which the map download is possible and takes another minute or so followed by a brief period over-writing the standard map. I just get a bit concerned having the lights on for that long; I did put the battery charger on briefly - easily done because it was already connected and I simply had to press the mains circuit breaker button to activate it. TBH it was probably unnecessary. The slightly scary bit was the pause in the process when the ECU red warning light illuminated and flashed before the new map over-wrote the deleted original….Anyway, it all worked. I’m going to download the original map today. This also needs the connection between the App and the dongle. When it has finished I should have a couple of maps to select on the App - the installed aftermarket one and the original. Handy for when I sell the bike, as I’ll put it back to standard and keep the UpMap kit for future use. It works on a lot of makes, even Honda, though I’ve never had a Honda with other than flawless fuelling and I won’t be exploring remapping my NC750X….
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