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V7 850 my first impressions

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borderer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote borderer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 09:24
You could always pull the fuse on the lights before you start 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2022 at 12:10
Yes, I should have done that. The fuse box is under the seat….
Anyway, I have now downloaded the OEM map. Unfortunately there is no indication as to version, so I can’t confirm whether or not it’s the latest one. Also, correction to earlier post: the UpMap hardware is assigned to the vehicle so I doubt that it will be any use on another. I had to record the 17 digit VIN twice as part of the set-up process. Best have the VIN available beforehand…..
In the App the OEM map sits ready to be installed on the ECU, whereas the App shows the modified map as the active one. I don’t know how many maps the system will allow - for example I could remap for the aftermarket exhausts sans baffles on payment for another map. I don’t intend to because the sound is great with the baffles in - roughly on a par with an old big block. I also noticed that there is available (at considerable expense) a map for a race-tuned V7 850… UpMap is actually an Italian concern, not American as might be assumed. Rather like Mistral exhausts I suspect they may have ties with the Italian makes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 08:32
I went for a test ride of over 30 miles yesterday to try out the new map. The improvement in the running of the engine was significant, in line with what others who have the same set-up as my bike have said on other forums. The first thing I noticed was the lack of “stumble” when I ride off my drive. Previously I never knew whether or not the bike would stall. If I gently opened the throttle and eased the clutch in a perfectly normal way as I do on any other bike, the engine would stutter. I used to have to use higher revs than ideal to launch the bike off the drive to ride round this. The first start of the day was the worst. It improved after, but was always there, making traffic riding unpleasant. Now: no sign of the stutter. The engine just feels stronger somehow
The second improvement is that the engine is much more grunty and smooth at the lower end. I can use a ratio one higher than before in speed restricted areas. I’d say it’s added 1,000rpm to the rev range at the bottom. The pick-up and “pull” of the engine are now noticeably better.
At the upper end of the rev range the difference is less noticeable but it is also the case that it ran well enough above 4,000rpm anyway. It does now seem to have more grunt when accelerating hard in a gear higher than I’d normally use for hard acceleration. I gave it the berries for a few miles of dual carriageway (a private one) and then rode through twisty lanes and finally the urban sprawl to home. There was no detectable deterioration in performance when the engine was thoroughly warm.
For me, it’s job done. As I said at the outset, this is what I wanted to do with my bike, fitted with Mistrals. I have not tested the UpMap map for OEM spec bikes, (interesting that they do one - what does that say for the standard one?). Also, it should be noted that my bike is an early Euro V model. I’m aware of two official map updates - mine might have had the footsteps but it definitely hasn’t had the second. My final point is that for the most part all the YouTube videos I’ve watched on the V7 850 have been silent on any fuelling issues. Perhaps mine was a rogue one. Certainly the gearbox appears to be inferior to the ones tested. Mine always goes into first gear silently for the first ride of the day; after that it clunks. It also clunks from first to second and second to third but is usually silent after that ie top three gears. It usually clunks on downwards changes. If it weren’t for testers saying how good their one changes gear it would not concern me but I do wonder if all is well. That said, with the new map blipping the throttle on down changes has become faster, improving the change.
Final, final point. The odd stink in the garage from the bike after a ride has gone. I wonder if it was too rich at tickover?
Anyway, that’s it. Take from it what you will, but I’m pleased with the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 09:54
Sounds like a solution.

On the earlier V7 1TB engines the OE maps run weak below 4000rpm (where the ECU has feedback from the lambda sensors) to allow the engine to pass emissions tests.  Above 4000rpm the ECU is open circuit, ie does not use feedback from the lambdas.

The V7 850 may be different but the symptoms you had with the OE map at lower rpm sound identical to my 2014 V7 when new - so I would think the mixture on your bike is now richened at lower rpm.  Probably back to the air/fuel ratio where Mr Guzzi would have wanted it if Euro emissions did not have to be met.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TooJuicy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 10:27
The "odd stink" is just as likely, indeed more likely, to be a very weak mixture.  Memory of smells is not good but I recall from 20 years ago the pungent almost sickly sweet aroma of a very weak running engine.

The re-map performance echoes my experience with my old Big Block engine - all the stumbling and fluffing gone replaced by a noticeably stronger performance.  The Euro 4 (??) Big Block also ran on a map adjusted by the Lambda sensors at lower revs.  Above that the bike ran directly off an unadulterated but still weak map.  I believe the regulators were of the opinion that engines ran predominantly in the lower rev range, particularly in urban environments.  There was also a small but discernable glitch when the ECU switched between Closed & Open loops.

The re-map I used disabled the lambda modification and ran off a map entirely, and the map was re-written to my spec - I could have chosen Economical fuelling, smooth riding, or Performance.  I went for smooth riding and fair enough the bike has lost 10 mpg but the Guzzi runs smoothly, seamlessly, and strongly from 1500 rpm through to max revs.  The difference in mid-range performance is quite astonishing which might explain some if not much of the extra fuel consumption.

Happy days.  

Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 13:09
Yes. IIRC I read somewhere recently that on the UpMap maps the O2 sensors are disabled, effectively making run open loop throughout the rev range. This is the same as the EFI 865 I modded 4-5 years ago. That was easier to do in the sense that the free TuneEcu software allowed the user (me) to turn off the 02 sensor and secondary air injection sensor engine fault triggers. In that case I removed all the SAI hardware and plugged the O2 sensor holes and SAI vacuum tube holes in the cylinder head. A beneficial side effect of that was that I could easily remove the spark plugs in the same way as a Meriden twin etc because there was no obstruction. I’d say that the transformation on the V7 is about as good as it was on the Thruxton.
Re the V7 Mk2, Maynard Hershon wrote a couple of articles in MCS&L re how badly his used but low mileage bike fuelled. He sent his ECU off to GTM in the States (where he lives) to have them remap it, with excellent results.
Ideally I suppose it should be done on a synopsis with a custom map for one’s own bike. I have found, however, that if you mod the bike using common parts eg exhausts, air filters and so on an aftermarket map is generally close enough. After all the official map is applied to every bike made for sale in a specific market, so really that’s the same thing. FWIW the US maps and EU maps on the UpMap system are different and cannot be interchanged. I don’t know why, as we’re now lumbered with canisters too. Also, UpMap themselves don’t write the maps - they provide the platform to enable maps to be uploaded to the ECU.
Finally, the UpMap dongle (for want of a better word) is designed for live use. On both my bike legs and my car I have mounts with cordless charging for my phone. The dashboard for the UpMap App shows live data for speed, temperature, gear selected, angle etc, so I should be able to use this as an alternative to the satnav Apps I use normally. The data are then visible for later analysis. What with that and the fault code reading/ deletion function it’s a nifty bit of kit.
I’ll have a look at the spark plugs - I should have done this before installing the map for comparison but I do didn’t. Anyway, I now have the bike running and sounding like I’m sure Guzzi would have from new, were they not hampered by St Greta.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 13:12
Bl**dy predictive text, “Synopsis” should read “dyno”. (Close). Sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2022 at 18:59
Just for completion: the lugs are fine and clean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TooJuicy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 08:59
Originally posted by Speciality Speciality wrote:

Re the V7 Mk2, Maynard Hershon wrote a couple of articles in MCS&L re how badly his used but low mileage bike fuelled. He sent his ECU off to GTM in the States (where he lives) to have them remap it, with excellent results.

I believe GTM in the States have, or have access to, a dyno.  I re-mapped my Big Block also with GTM kit and the guy Tod asked for a full inventory on the bike - exhaust, baffles, cannister fitted or removed, air box, etc.

Also, be aware in the US some regions sell fuel at a lower octane than we have in European which 95 RON ( 2 star in old money) - the GTM map I have is  written for higher US octanes only, that is equivalent to UK 95 RON and above

Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 09:32
At the top of this forum is a sticky thread about fueling on the 1TB V7 750s.  Different people use different solutions to enrich the bottom rev range and improve pick up.
I was under the impression that fueling was better on the V7 850 engines but this thread seems to echo the sticky thread above.
Andyb

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 09:49
I can’t comment on the 750 V7s, but to my knowledge there have been three maps for the 850. This suggests that the original at least was less than perfect. Whatever, mine is now transformed with an aftermarket map.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 10:25
I wasn't 100% happy with mine when new, it had a slight throttle delay after a fast-slow-fast sequence. After removing St. Greta's box I'm happy. It felt like it was running out of fuel and there was a hiss if you opened the filler at a predictable point. I aren't planning on doing more. 

My 750 was a very early STB. IMHO it wasn't as bad as some people seem to say, but definitely worse than the 850.

Andy 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speciality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 11:29
Maybe yours had the first map update. I have left my evap canister on as it doesn’t seem to produce any adverse effects. Also, mine doesn’t have the standard exhausts, which may or may not make a difference. BTW when I got back from my test ride I noticed that the traction control had reverted to the default. It had occurred to me that this might happen but I forgot about it. I’ve now reset it to 1, where I’ll leave it. Good that it ran so well even in position 2.
Another observation: Todd at GTM has had a standard Euro V on the dyno. He reckons it runs lean at the lower end - go figure, as they say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 17:18
Originally posted by Andy M Andy M wrote:

What the Guzzi bulletin seems to be on about is their weird ASR calibration. ... Moto Guzzi don't seem to have this, or maybe they do but their lawyers and service providers want extra. They have this teach in process. Do some hideous Casio style button pushing and go for a ride and it stores the tyre values.


Two Piaggio maxi-scooters I had, had almost identcal procedure... so it's a 'Piaggio thing' (?)


"Chicken nuggets don't dance on a Tuesday."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2022 at 08:06
That's interesting.

I was giving Guzzi the benefit of the doubt, thinking the way a 1950's pushrod twin reacted to a 1970's electronic might need something different, hence the crude ASR and need to tune out even worse behaviour. Stalling the engine is obviously unacceptable, a locked transmission is worse than a spun up drive wheel.

A Scooter twin or single however has no such considerations. Kawasaki/Kymco install an ASR system as smooth as any you'd get on a modern car.

This calibration then seems even more like a Piaggio money making scheme or lack of development thing.

Andy 
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